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	<title>Comments on: Why don&#8217;t we already have a real time market for electricity?</title>
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	<link>http://greenmonk.net/why-dont-we-already-have-a-real-time-market-for-electricity/</link>
	<description>Green from the roots up, Sustainable from the top down</description>
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		<title>By: Uncle B</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/why-dont-we-already-have-a-real-time-market-for-electricity/comment-page-1/#comment-3865</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Make electricity cheaper at any time you want, and buy it back for more when you need it - I will convert my swimming pool to a huge lead-acid battery, and buy an inverter and make money. I am a small time sentimentalist, rogue capitalist and I will take every advantage, legal, shady or otherwise, to make a buck! I exist in great numbers throughout your society and if I serve a useful purpose or not, I will make a buck! This time, it is a win-win. I don&#039;t care. Give me the money!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make electricity cheaper at any time you want, and buy it back for more when you need it &#8211; I will convert my swimming pool to a huge lead-acid battery, and buy an inverter and make money. I am a small time sentimentalist, rogue capitalist and I will take every advantage, legal, shady or otherwise, to make a buck! I exist in great numbers throughout your society and if I serve a useful purpose or not, I will make a buck! This time, it is a win-win. I don&#8217;t care. Give me the money!</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Raftery</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/why-dont-we-already-have-a-real-time-market-for-electricity/comment-page-1/#comment-3829</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Raftery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=368#comment-3829</guid>
		<description>Bill, you are absolutely correct, I should have asked specifically about the consumer market in my post title.

However, I disagree with the thesis that consumers won&#039;t benefit much. The trial in Canada didn&#039;t go far enough. Yes consumers need hot water but water heating is a movable load, as is refrigeration, as is charging plug-in hybrids, as is cloths washing/drying, as is dish washing, etc. Many of these operations can be controlled automatically i.e. have the smart meters be programmable to talk to domestic appliances and have them come on/off or shift thermostats based on electricity pricing.

Also, at nighttime electricity is free in France because the country is 70% nuclear and they have more electricity than they know what to do with. As renewables like wind penetrate the grid further, similar situations will occur. Electricity will become cheap/free/maybe even negative in price to stimulate demand. 

When this occurs, domestic savings will be very real.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, you are absolutely correct, I should have asked specifically about the consumer market in my post title.</p>
<p>However, I disagree with the thesis that consumers won&#8217;t benefit much. The trial in Canada didn&#8217;t go far enough. Yes consumers need hot water but water heating is a movable load, as is refrigeration, as is charging plug-in hybrids, as is cloths washing/drying, as is dish washing, etc. Many of these operations can be controlled automatically i.e. have the smart meters be programmable to talk to domestic appliances and have them come on/off or shift thermostats based on electricity pricing.</p>
<p>Also, at nighttime electricity is free in France because the country is 70% nuclear and they have more electricity than they know what to do with. As renewables like wind penetrate the grid further, similar situations will occur. Electricity will become cheap/free/maybe even negative in price to stimulate demand. </p>
<p>When this occurs, domestic savings will be very real.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill St Arnaud</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/why-dont-we-already-have-a-real-time-market-for-electricity/comment-page-1/#comment-3827</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill St Arnaud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:25:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=368#comment-3827</guid>
		<description>In fact real time demand supply systems for energy have been around for some time for large industrial users. They can purchase power by the kilo-watt minute from a variety of suppliers.  The economics are very compelling.

But building real time systems for the consumer market is entirely different matter. Despite all the hub bub about smart meters and so forth, the potential savings of using real time systems is very small.  In a recent trial in Canada using smart meters and real time energy pricing, the average monthly saving was less than $8.  The reality is that real time energy systems are largely only of benefit to the utility in terms of load averaging.

Consumers dont have much leeway in terms of eliminating loads. They still need hot water. They still want to watch TV etc. Real time systems allow them to possibly shift the peak load and save a little bit of money in using off peak rates - but the savings are miniscule.

Bill</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact real time demand supply systems for energy have been around for some time for large industrial users. They can purchase power by the kilo-watt minute from a variety of suppliers.  The economics are very compelling.</p>
<p>But building real time systems for the consumer market is entirely different matter. Despite all the hub bub about smart meters and so forth, the potential savings of using real time systems is very small.  In a recent trial in Canada using smart meters and real time energy pricing, the average monthly saving was less than $8.  The reality is that real time energy systems are largely only of benefit to the utility in terms of load averaging.</p>
<p>Consumers dont have much leeway in terms of eliminating loads. They still need hot water. They still want to watch TV etc. Real time systems allow them to possibly shift the peak load and save a little bit of money in using off peak rates &#8211; but the savings are miniscule.</p>
<p>Bill</p>
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