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	<title>Comments on: What if electricity were like the Internet?</title>
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	<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/</link>
	<description>Green from the roots up, Sustainable from the top down</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 16:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Balaji Sowmyanarayan</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3499</link>
		<dc:creator>Balaji Sowmyanarayan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3499</guid>
		<description>In the early days of USENET, uucp and tape transfer were very popular. Innovations in storing and transferring electricity will power the Moore's law equivalent in Smart Power Grids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the early days of USENET, uucp and tape transfer were very popular. Innovations in storing and transferring electricity will power the Moore&#8217;s law equivalent in Smart Power Grids.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3488</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3488</guid>
		<description>Hi Tom,

I'd like to see more on this, with specific reference to the energy and transport section of the Zero Carbon Britain report. See http://www.zerocarbonbritain.com.

Also, there will be lots of specialist energy consultancies looking into these questions, e.g. see http://www.ilexenergy.com. Large utility companies are still reeling from the massive shock of deregulation in the early nineties, and to change the game so fundamentally in the way you suggest would require huge multilateral cooperation and transposition into national law. The questions aren't easy - e.g. which type of feed-in tariff to go for.

Keep plugging away though, I'll keep an eye on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tom,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to see more on this, with specific reference to the energy and transport section of the Zero Carbon Britain report. See <a href="http://www.zerocarbonbritain.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.zerocarbonbritain.com</a>.</p>
<p>Also, there will be lots of specialist energy consultancies looking into these questions, e.g. see <a href="http://www.ilexenergy.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.ilexenergy.com</a>. Large utility companies are still reeling from the massive shock of deregulation in the early nineties, and to change the game so fundamentally in the way you suggest would require huge multilateral cooperation and transposition into national law. The questions aren&#8217;t easy - e.g. which type of feed-in tariff to go for.</p>
<p>Keep plugging away though, I&#8217;ll keep an eye on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Introducing the NegaWatt! at Greenmonk: the blog</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3461</link>
		<dc:creator>Introducing the NegaWatt! at Greenmonk: the blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3461</guid>
		<description>[...] all feeds back into the read/write grid we have discussed here previously. With the rise of the NegaWatt, electricity becomes a far more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all feeds back into the read/write grid we have discussed here previously. With the rise of the NegaWatt, electricity becomes a far more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Sweeney</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3460</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Sweeney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3460</guid>
		<description>Hi Tom,

People that work in electrical power generation and transmission generally aren't familiar with the Internet and visa-versa. I have a degree in electrical engineering, a background in large grid sychronisation for wind turbines and I am the founder and Managinf Director of a SaaS company. I am unusual in that I have a leg in both camps.

You are absolutely right! Electrical Transmission Systems traditionally look like an old IT model. Generators = Mainframes. Separated Grids with limited interconnect = Closed LANs. The new buzz word is the 'Smart Grid'. This looks much more like the Internet. If you own a PV solar panel or a wind turbine then you become a read-write user of the Internet, sorry I meant Smart Grid.

I agree with all of the points above, from other comments, that support your argument. And I agree partly with some of the points that counter your argument. Power distribution is different from data distriution in one key respect and we need to bear that in mind.

Moore's law will not apply to electricity distribution. Technological advances will not reduce the cost or increase the power of electrical distribution at anything like the same rate as for data processing and transmission. Moore's law is really about processing data with lower and lower amounts of energy per MIP. You can't process energy with lower and lower amounts of energy. Therefore implementing smarter grids will involve large amounts of capital infrastructure investment. Research TREC as an example of one such proposed project.

In supply chain management there is a phenomenon called the 'bullwhip effect'. This phenomenon is taught in SCM using the Beer Game. This bullwhip effect is caused by the surprising fact that data and inventory are interchangeable within the laws of diminishing returns. Similar to this effect, the application of data to electricity grids can have an amazing effect on the price reduction of electricity, increase in renewables usage and the stability of the network. The magic key to this utopia is creating large open markets for electricity where anyone can create or consume electricity when the price reaches their threshold for either. The Internet used in parallel with the grid will enable the trading in electricity by ever smaller organisations until each household has a 'current account'. I see the grids of the future like a giant eBay for electricity.

Keep scratching this surface, Tom. Pandora's box will open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tom,</p>
<p>People that work in electrical power generation and transmission generally aren&#8217;t familiar with the Internet and visa-versa. I have a degree in electrical engineering, a background in large grid sychronisation for wind turbines and I am the founder and Managinf Director of a SaaS company. I am unusual in that I have a leg in both camps.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right! Electrical Transmission Systems traditionally look like an old IT model. Generators = Mainframes. Separated Grids with limited interconnect = Closed LANs. The new buzz word is the &#8216;Smart Grid&#8217;. This looks much more like the Internet. If you own a PV solar panel or a wind turbine then you become a read-write user of the Internet, sorry I meant Smart Grid.</p>
<p>I agree with all of the points above, from other comments, that support your argument. And I agree partly with some of the points that counter your argument. Power distribution is different from data distriution in one key respect and we need to bear that in mind.</p>
<p>Moore&#8217;s law will not apply to electricity distribution. Technological advances will not reduce the cost or increase the power of electrical distribution at anything like the same rate as for data processing and transmission. Moore&#8217;s law is really about processing data with lower and lower amounts of energy per MIP. You can&#8217;t process energy with lower and lower amounts of energy. Therefore implementing smarter grids will involve large amounts of capital infrastructure investment. Research TREC as an example of one such proposed project.</p>
<p>In supply chain management there is a phenomenon called the &#8216;bullwhip effect&#8217;. This phenomenon is taught in SCM using the Beer Game. This bullwhip effect is caused by the surprising fact that data and inventory are interchangeable within the laws of diminishing returns. Similar to this effect, the application of data to electricity grids can have an amazing effect on the price reduction of electricity, increase in renewables usage and the stability of the network. The magic key to this utopia is creating large open markets for electricity where anyone can create or consume electricity when the price reaches their threshold for either. The Internet used in parallel with the grid will enable the trading in electricity by ever smaller organisations until each household has a &#8216;current account&#8217;. I see the grids of the future like a giant eBay for electricity.</p>
<p>Keep scratching this surface, Tom. Pandora&#8217;s box will open.</p>
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		<title>By: Ludovic</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3416</link>
		<dc:creator>Ludovic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3416</guid>
		<description>Most of what you express above exist already, but this doesn't mean that your points are not valid: innovation is often the sum of several precursors.

Most of the complexities lie in the commercial aspects, here's what I personally understand on the software aspects. 

1. Read/Write -some countries mandate a tariff to buy back electricity from small producers. It can be perverse, like in France it is degressive meaning it encourages people to build lots of small wind farms instead of more efficient larger ones.
ETRM (Energy Risk and Trading Management) is the software that is needed to manage those complex transactions.

2. Reliability. A very personal comment here: much like the trains privatisation, the benefits of the deregulation of utilities are not really perceived by consumers, at least not as much as say telephone. While the cost of telcos has dropped enormously (remember dialling from payphones with calling cards and waiting for the call back?), I can't say I see similar benefits for rail users and electricity or gas: it's often more expensive and crucially capital investments in the network are often not sustained. The UK rail system is broken all over and is in a state where fixing is nearly impossible without major disruptions. The US has and will continue to experience black-outs and brown-outs.
Germany and France on the other hand have kept regulated electricity providers and from my own personal experience, the network seems better. Plus of course, generating 80% from nuclear gives France a big advantage now -we outta thank de Gaulle's vision...  Oh, and do check Wikipedia on HVDC.

3. Finally, you're talking about SmartMeters. Oracle demonstrated those at CS Week in San Antonio and at PowerGen in Milan, the issue is about open standards to connect the meter to the appliances (tell the fridge to be a bit warmer for 1h) and the meter to the utilties billing system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of what you express above exist already, but this doesn&#8217;t mean that your points are not valid: innovation is often the sum of several precursors.</p>
<p>Most of the complexities lie in the commercial aspects, here&#8217;s what I personally understand on the software aspects. </p>
<p>1. Read/Write -some countries mandate a tariff to buy back electricity from small producers. It can be perverse, like in France it is degressive meaning it encourages people to build lots of small wind farms instead of more efficient larger ones.<br />
ETRM (Energy Risk and Trading Management) is the software that is needed to manage those complex transactions.</p>
<p>2. Reliability. A very personal comment here: much like the trains privatisation, the benefits of the deregulation of utilities are not really perceived by consumers, at least not as much as say telephone. While the cost of telcos has dropped enormously (remember dialling from payphones with calling cards and waiting for the call back?), I can&#8217;t say I see similar benefits for rail users and electricity or gas: it&#8217;s often more expensive and crucially capital investments in the network are often not sustained. The UK rail system is broken all over and is in a state where fixing is nearly impossible without major disruptions. The US has and will continue to experience black-outs and brown-outs.<br />
Germany and France on the other hand have kept regulated electricity providers and from my own personal experience, the network seems better. Plus of course, generating 80% from nuclear gives France a big advantage now -we outta thank de Gaulle&#8217;s vision&#8230;  Oh, and do check Wikipedia on HVDC.</p>
<p>3. Finally, you&#8217;re talking about SmartMeters. Oracle demonstrated those at CS Week in San Antonio and at PowerGen in Milan, the issue is about open standards to connect the meter to the appliances (tell the fridge to be a bit warmer for 1h) and the meter to the utilties billing system.</p>
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		<title>By: Phoebe Bright</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3402</link>
		<dc:creator>Phoebe Bright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3402</guid>
		<description>I completely agree Tom.  I think part of the reason that the incumbents don't see this as an option is the traditional view that energy supply and distribution is a massive requirement that requires massive solutions - economies of scale etc.  As with early computers, the focus was on delivering bigger and bigger computers before the mini-computer and then the micro-computer led to a whole new model of networked computers and then the internet. 

Just as the energy companies are now seeing the benefits of selling efficiency to their customers, where previously the idea of selling less was definitely less, so I think they will come around to the idea of distributed networks being good for everyone and giving them new markets and new possibilities.  

Maybe it will follow the model of the software companies who are effectively out-sourcing much of their R&#38;D by providing access to their software via APIs for amateur programmers to play with. The electricity supply/distribution companies can open their networks so that customers can provide storage, peak shaving and generation and the companies make money by managing the system...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I completely agree Tom.  I think part of the reason that the incumbents don&#8217;t see this as an option is the traditional view that energy supply and distribution is a massive requirement that requires massive solutions - economies of scale etc.  As with early computers, the focus was on delivering bigger and bigger computers before the mini-computer and then the micro-computer led to a whole new model of networked computers and then the internet. </p>
<p>Just as the energy companies are now seeing the benefits of selling efficiency to their customers, where previously the idea of selling less was definitely less, so I think they will come around to the idea of distributed networks being good for everyone and giving them new markets and new possibilities.  </p>
<p>Maybe it will follow the model of the software companies who are effectively out-sourcing much of their R&amp;D by providing access to their software via APIs for amateur programmers to play with. The electricity supply/distribution companies can open their networks so that customers can provide storage, peak shaving and generation and the companies make money by managing the system&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Asa</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3387</link>
		<dc:creator>Asa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:49:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3387</guid>
		<description>Tom -- the huge difference I see is the size and establishment of the big players in the game.  They make plenty of money as is, and don't have a big incentive to change.  Early computer networks weren't nearly this established, and the benefits of interconnection were clear, and costs relatively low.  Also, regulation and public policy play a dominant role in power transmission; this could also be the savior in that public policy can force changes that the incumbents wouldn't choose.  I think we'll see better work within nations than between them, for this reason.  The US is big enough to implement something like the widely-distributed-renewables picture within its own borders, especially if we pair that with a solid, reliable way to feed energy in from massively distributed sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom &#8212; the huge difference I see is the size and establishment of the big players in the game.  They make plenty of money as is, and don&#8217;t have a big incentive to change.  Early computer networks weren&#8217;t nearly this established, and the benefits of interconnection were clear, and costs relatively low.  Also, regulation and public policy play a dominant role in power transmission; this could also be the savior in that public policy can force changes that the incumbents wouldn&#8217;t choose.  I think we&#8217;ll see better work within nations than between them, for this reason.  The US is big enough to implement something like the widely-distributed-renewables picture within its own borders, especially if we pair that with a solid, reliable way to feed energy in from massively distributed sources.</p>
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		<title>By: April Dunford</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3381</link>
		<dc:creator>April Dunford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3381</guid>
		<description>The Ontario Ministry of Energy has a program where you can generate power from renewable resources and put it on the grid and you get an equivalent discount on your electric bill.  The idea is that it solves the energy storage problem for folks that have the ability to do solar/wind/etc. http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=renewable.netmetering</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Ontario Ministry of Energy has a program where you can generate power from renewable resources and put it on the grid and you get an equivalent discount on your electric bill.  The idea is that it solves the energy storage problem for folks that have the ability to do solar/wind/etc. <a href="http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=renewable.netmetering" rel="nofollow">http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=renewable.netmetering</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom Raftery</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3380</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Raftery</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 18:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3380</guid>
		<description>@Thomas - I wouldn't get hung up on technological difficulties, these can be engineered around. Today my mobile phone has 8gb of storage. 10 years ago only high end servers had that kind of capacity.

@Brian - Transmission losses are now less of a factor than they were previously and new materials have the potential to reduce these even further. 

With the increasing price of oil, the economic imperatives are in place to make this happen

@Meryn - absolutely, this falls in perfectly with the thesis I was putting forward. The plug-in hybrid cars are only one of the read/write options, microgeneration is obviously another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Thomas - I wouldn&#8217;t get hung up on technological difficulties, these can be engineered around. Today my mobile phone has 8gb of storage. 10 years ago only high end servers had that kind of capacity.</p>
<p>@Brian - Transmission losses are now less of a factor than they were previously and new materials have the potential to reduce these even further. </p>
<p>With the increasing price of oil, the economic imperatives are in place to make this happen</p>
<p>@Meryn - absolutely, this falls in perfectly with the thesis I was putting forward. The plug-in hybrid cars are only one of the read/write options, microgeneration is obviously another.</p>
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		<title>By: Meryn Stol</title>
		<link>http://greenmonk.net/what-if-electricity-were-like-the-internet/#comment-3377</link>
		<dc:creator>Meryn Stol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenmonk.net/?p=179#comment-3377</guid>
		<description>If you want to use an internet metaphor, I think we should rather look at P2P-power: Local, distributed power generation. Why transport energy if you can generate it in your backyard, on your own roof, and share (or take from) the surplus across town?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to use an internet metaphor, I think we should rather look at P2P-power: Local, distributed power generation. Why transport energy if you can generate it in your backyard, on your own roof, and share (or take from) the surplus across town?</p>
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